Laura Ingraham: Have we ever tried to meddle other countries’ elections?
James Woolsey: Oh probably, but it was for the good of the system, in order to avoid the communists from taking over. For example, in Europe in ’47, ’48, ’49, the Greeks and the Italians. The CIA —
LI: We don’t do that now, though? We don’t mess around in other peoples’ elections now?
JW: Well! Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. Only for a very good cause —
LI: [Laughing.] Can we do a Vine video of that?
JS: That was former CIA Director James Woolsey. He was speaking to Laura Ingraham on Fox News — quite the contrast to the analysts that you hear all day and night on other media outlets.
Now, just to be clear, I have zero admiration whatsoever for James Woolsey. He was dangerous when he was CIA director. He was also an early backer of Donald Trump. But James Woolsey, of course, was telling part of the truth that is seldom stated these days, especially on large media platforms.
The U.S. has a long, long history of intervening in other countries’ elections and affairs, of overthrowing democratically elected governments, of financing murderous campaigns to punish populations that voted for the wrong candidates. And on, and on.
There was a study by Carnegie Mellon University that found that the U.S. had interfered in more than 80 presidential elections around the world and that was from 1946 to 2000, and those stats don’t even include all the coups, the regime changes, et cetera, that the United States has conducted after someone the U.S. doesn’t like takes power in a country or a leader falls out of favor with the United States.
Now Woolsey’s bullshit about the U.S. interfering in elections for all the right reasons is of course, just that. It’s bullshit.
But James Woolsey’s comments aren’t so different than the sentiments offered by Donald Trump about Vladimir Putin in an interview that he did with Fox News.
The reason I’m bringing up these examples is because whether the U.S. media want to talk about it or not, there are a whole lot of people across the globe who have long resented the U.S. meddling in their country’s affairs.
Americans are now facing some questions that people in many countries have had to ask for many years. Questions about their own leaders. Questions about the role of foreign powers, including the United States and Russia, in their internal affairs and their elections. And all of this has to be taken into account when we study the ever-unfolding investigation into Trump and Russia and the 2016 elections. Why? Because context matters.
It’s almost never talked about, but remember when Barack Obama appeared in a video in 2017 backing Emmanuel Macron in France during the election campaign there?
President Barack Obama: Because of how important this election is, I also want you to know that I am supporting Emmanuel Macron to lead you forward. En marche! Vive la France!
JS: Now, of course Obama was no longer U.S. president when he recorded this video, but isn’t this one of the most powerful Americans on the planet right now? Intervening to influence the elections in a foreign country? I mean given Obama’s global popularity, such an intervention could be very powerful. It might have even swayed some French voters.
Can you imagine if a former Russian leader had released a video during the 2016 U.S. elections that encouraged people to vote for Donald Trump? Can you imagine what the reaction would have been in the U.S.?
These recently announced indictments coming out of the special prosecutor Robert Mueller’s investigation were announced by the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. And they detail the alleged activities of some powerful Russian businessmen using social media and some real-live, real-world events in an effort to sow discord in the U.S. elections.
Now, for argument’s sake, I don’t have any trouble believing that Robert Mueller has the evidence to support his case. But the questions we are left with include: Did it actually have an impact? Did it change any votes? Was it actually ordered by any Russian government officials? Did any Trump people wittingly or willingly participate?
We may never know the answer to any or all of those questions. And, personally, I think that the U.S. as a society does a pretty good job of spreading junk and misinformation around the web on its own — that any outside help is sort of secondary.
But the way that this is being discussed on major media outlets is like these indictments reveal a plot that is akin to Pearl Harbor.
Not one, but two guests last week made that analogy on the same MSNBC show in primetime.
Come on. I have read all of the indictments and the plea agreements that have been made public. And I have to say that such a comparison, Pearl Harbor, is just plain nuts. We should get to the bottom of what exactly happened and the full extent of Russian government involvement, but this kind of loony hyperbole doesn’t help anything at all. I don’t even believe it helps the case of people who think that Putin personally conspired with Donald Trump to destroy Hillary Clinton.
So here are some of the questions that have not been answered about this whole Trump-Russia situation that I think need to be resolved before we can really assess what happened and what impact it had.
First, did Donald Trump actively participate in a conspiracy with the Russian government or its representatives to interfere in the U.S. presidential election in 2016? Was it criminal activity or just activity that some, maybe many, maybe most Americans would find immoral and improper? Same question goes for Trump’s inner circle.
Another question: Did the Russian government actually direct and finance the effort to hack the DNC and John Podesta’s e-mails. Let’s see the evidence. There are forensic experts who say “Open/shut case: Yes.” And there are experts who say that it’s far from proven. The CIA and the NSA also have the ability to falsify data and leave fake fingerprints. I’m not saying that that’s the most likely scenario, but what I am saying is that when you’re dealing with the CIA and the NSA, everything must be on the table. If this case is open and shut about Russia directing this, let’s see the evidence.
Next question: If Russia did hack or was in possession of these e-mails, how did they end up in WikiLeaks’ hands? And, I’m sorry, just hating Julian Assange is not proof. Julian Assange having some shared visions or even desired outcomes of an election in common with Russia does not a criminal conspiracy make. Let’s see the actual evidence that Julian Assange and WikiLeaks got these documents from Russia.
Why did Michael Flynn lie to the FBI about his communications with Russia? What we do know is that Mike Flynn was talking to Russia about helping Israel. Was Flynn lying because he was covering up a secret conspiracy with Russia? Or was he lying because of the hype around Trump and Russia? Was he lying for some other reason we don’t yet understand? That’s pretty important to know.
Also what actually happened at that Trump Tower meeting with the Russian lawyer and Don Jr. and Jared Kushner? It’s all mired right now in a whole bunch of half-truths and bullshit emanating from the Trump camp. Let’s get to the bottom of what actually happened there.
Did anything ever materialize in the form of evidence that showed direct sharing of dirt on Hillary Clinton by Russia with the Trump campaign? We’ve heard a lot about offers from people who, through a maze of this dot and that dot and the other dot lead you back to, “They must be working for the Kremlin.” But again, facts are important and we need to see the actual evidence.
Steve Bannon said in that book “Fire and Fury” that all of this ultimately is about money laundering. Is that true? What happens if the only charges against Trump people turn out to be lying to federal investigators or obstructing justice or unrelated financial crimes? What do we then conclude about all of this and all of the attention that it’s received?
You know because Trump is such a cartoonish villain, it seems like large sectors of the American population aren’t really interested in seeing more information to conclude that Vladimir Putin put Donald Trump in the White House, or that Trump should be impeached and put on trial. And, you know what, maybe at the end of the day, when all the facts are on the table, that’s precisely what should happen. But it’s going to hurt all of us and the democratic process in this country if we have a verdict first and a trial later.
I would argue that the same is true with how we currently assess this story. The publication that I co-founded, The Intercept, has published a very wide range of stories dealing with the Trump-Russia investigation. And I’ll tell you, there is a ferocious debate on these very issues internally among the staff of The Intercept.
My colleague, Glenn Greenwald, is now a frequent guest on FOX News and he is constantly trolled on social media by people accusing him of being a Kremlin stooge or being on the Russian payroll. People like to joke, “Oh, it’s the Ivancept.” I guess that’s funny, Ivancept? Oh, I get it! It’s because Russians have a popular name, Ivan? Anyway, I’ll leave it to them.
Glenn is one of the most high-profile critics of the official story that has been put forward by the U.S. intelligence community, the Democrats and many media outlets, including some of this country’s most powerful and influential newspapers and news channels. Glenn has been relentless in his criticism of CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times and The Washington Post, just to name a few.
On the flip side my colleague, James Risen, recently wrote the first of what will be a series of columns for The Intercept examining the facts in the Russia investigation. Jim’s first column was titled “Is Donald Trump a Traitor?” Now, Jim as you’ll recall, also broke this story recently that there was a secret NSA communication channel set up with Russians offering to sell dirt on Donald Trump, remember this was the thing where the NSA used its official Twitter feed to send coded messages to the Russians? Jim Risen battled both the Bush and Obama administrations, under the threat of imprisonment, for refusing to name his sources in some of the most sensitive national security reporting of the modern era. Jim and Glenn have both won Pulitzer Prizes. They both have found themselves in the crosshairs of the U.S. government for their journalism.
— source theintercept.com