https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=&rel=0
Rachel Moran
On Contact 024
00:05
welcome to on contact today we sit down
00:08
with the anti prostitution activists
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Rachel Moran what prostitution is is
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compensated sexual assault
00:15
it’s the commercialization of sexual
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abuse the reduction of another human
00:38
being to an object and the glorification
00:40
of male power and violence whether in
00:42
war or prostitution are romanticized by
00:45
popular culture it is difficult to
00:48
challenge the lies disseminated about
00:50
sex work or about military virtues those
00:54
who counter the dominant narrative even
00:56
if they speak from long personal
00:58
experience are drowned out speaking the
01:01
truth about war or the truth about
01:03
prostitution is lonely and often futile
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the manufactured illusion of heroes or
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glamorous call girls plays to a culture
01:11
that celebrates the commodification of
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human beings those who have escaped the
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clutches of prostitution or war often
01:19
struggling to cope with trauma guilt and
01:21
shame are reticent to resurrect in
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public the nightmare that will hound
01:26
them for the rest of their lives being
01:29
prostituted is not work it is being
01:31
raped for a living our t correspondent
01:34
anya param pal looks at the movement to
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decriminalize the activity of
01:38
prostituted women and criminalize the
01:41
work of traffickers pimps and johns the
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horrific business of human trafficking
01:47
is the world’s fastest growing crime as
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it generates an estimated thirty two
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billion dollars annually the UN
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estimates 79% of trafficked women are
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trafficked for sexual exploitation but
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there is one way of regulating
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prostitution which proponents say
02:03
reduces its demand and protects
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vulnerable women it’s known as the
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Nordic model and it’s based on the
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premise that prostitution is actually a
02:12
form of male violence again
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women it characterizes sex workers as
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victims rather than criminals and it’s
02:18
been growing in Europe implemented in
02:21
countries like Denmark Sweden Finland
02:23
and Iceland its strictest form can be
02:26
found in Sweden Norway and Iceland which
02:29
have all unilaterally banned the
02:31
purchase of sex period and according to
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Stockholm University it has reduced the
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amount of prostitutes in Sweden from
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around 3000 in 1993 to about 300 and
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2008 however the laws do have their
02:46
critics who say they’re based on the
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moral position that the sale of sex in
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any case is wrong and we should
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acknowledge instead that prostitution is
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one of humankind’s oldest professions
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and thus nearly impossible to outlaw
02:58
rather countries like Spain and the
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Netherlands have sought to protect sex
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workers by decriminalizing the industry
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and regulating it one thing is agreed
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upon however sex workers are some of the
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most marginalized and vulnerable people
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in the world and it should be the goal
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of us all to protect them today I’m
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joined by the anti prostitution
03:20
activists rachel moran she was a
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prostitute admirer ‘land for seven years
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and has done in her book paid for my
03:28
journey through prostitution what I
03:30
attempted to do in my book war is a
03:32
force that gives us meaning about the
03:33
reality of war she has endured very
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similar attacks from people who prefer
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the myth to the reality this myth has
03:41
seduced many on the left with the absurd
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idea that being prostituted is a form of
03:45
work rather than a raw brutal and
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soul-destroying form of capitalist
03:51
exploitation Rachel let’s talk about the
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idea of choice this is used by people
03:59
who argue that sex work should be
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legalized mm-hmm well of course they
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need to use that argument because if you
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strip that argument out of the frame
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you’re left with the raw ugly reality
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and people who want to excuse
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prostitution of course don’t want to
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look at that and they don’t want anyone
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else looking at it so of course they
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have to bring in this element of choice
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now the reality that I know is the
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prostitution is something that happens
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in the lives of individuals in the
04:28
absence of choice and because they had
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no choice
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so that argument and you yourself
04:34
entered prostitution when you became
04:37
homeless yeah I left home at 14 due to
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very extreme dysfunction in my
04:43
environment and was was homeless pretty
04:47
much straight away and was prostituted
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within a year so far no more fun well
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when I say it was prostitute when I was
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prostitute what I mean by wide variety
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men but I was pimped in to it initially
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by a young man I met yeah and would you
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say among the women that you worked with
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that was the norm we were there because
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we had no choice simple as I never met a
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woman in prostitution who was there
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because she wanted to be there let’s
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talk about the concept of prostitution
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as work mm-hmm well you know that’s the
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one that’s the whole phrase sex work was
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invented in order to try to frame
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prostitution that’s simply a matter of
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Labor of course it isn’t what
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prostitution is is compensated sexual
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assault
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it’s the commercialization of sexual
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abuse I’ve said this many times and you
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know you open the show by identifying
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prostitution as really the heart and
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soul of capitalism I suppose didn’t deep
05:50
this part of it and that’s exactly what
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it is what are if we look at
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prostitution as a form of labor
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what are actually the skills and
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attributes that you need to be a
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prostituted woman mmm well I’ve
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identified them from my own experience
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as the ability to restrain the urge to
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cry the ability to restrain the urge to
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vomit and such things that absolutely
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are counter to human nature because when
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you’re dreadfully upset of course you
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want to cry when you’re extremely
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nauseated of course you want to vomit
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and so forth and another really big and
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very important skill is the ability to
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imagine yourself out of your current
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reality
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to pretend that this is not happening
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that’s very important which of course
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leads to dissociation so these are the
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things that it’s necessary to be able to
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cultivate within the self in order to
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get the so-called job and what are the
06:51
consequences of that Oh enormous
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psychological and emotional trauma a
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lifelong and by that I mean I mean I’m
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not curled up in a ball crying every
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night Chris but I do know that that has
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affected my life and always will and I
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can say the same of every woman I
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organized went now politically who’s
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been true to sex trade and talk about
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what how that trauma manifests itself oh
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there are so many ways for a lot of
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women it’s very connected to
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relationships sometimes it’s connected
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to the ability to have a romantic
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connection itself then other times they
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might affect sexuality that’s very
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common for me I think it’s it’s removed
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me from myself in a sense that I’m not
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sure I will ever 100% be able to afford
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to that broken link if you like what
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what extent is the sexual abuse of
07:54
children a precursor to prostitution a
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kind of conditioning for prostitution
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it’s been described as boot camp for
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prostitution I believe it was the
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feminist activist Andrea Dworkin who
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made that remark I think she’s
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absolutely right
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luckily for me in my childhood although
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I did have several approaches from
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pedophiles
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I was never ritualistically younger only
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sexual abused sexually abused but I know
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many many women who were it’s huge it’s
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huge as a precursor from the seven years
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that you were engaged in this activity I
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think you break down the types of John’s
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the types of clients you had into three
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categories what are they I would say
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that if you were to roughly break them
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down you have men who men who get off on
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the situation on your powerlessness in
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the situation now those are the toughest
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men you’ll ever have to deal I’m sure
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you should add that you started when you
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were 15 hmm as a minor yeah and you
09:02
write in your book paid for that you
09:05
would always make sure and tell the
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John’s that you were 15 because they got
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off faster oh yeah they did
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and that became apparent to me on my
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very first day so what I figured out at
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the time was a very kind of crude kind
09:19
of way of trying to protect myself I
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knew that this excited him enormously so
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I’d make sure that they know about it
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and that would get me out of the car
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quicker and so that was that was kind of
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a defense mechanism it was in the year
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since thinking about it and analyzing it
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in my own mind that I really realized
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that the core of prostitution is about
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defilement that’s what it’s really about
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it’s about using the body of another
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person when you know damn fine and well
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than a child oh yes yeah and look I
09:52
operated the the phones in indoor
09:55
prostitution for years after we were all
09:58
run off the streets in 93 and I think I
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said here the last time we spoke Chris I
10:04
would be relentlessly confronted with
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the question what age is the younger
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scary of God and all sorts of variations
10:11
on that that team so it was yeah it’s
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about these violent the idea that’s
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where all will go back to this but for
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all three of the different types of
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court of categories they you confronted
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in prostitution you would say it’s for
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all of them it’s about to spoil me I
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think that for some men they have this
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easy the myths of prostitution are so
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pervasive that are actually our men out
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there who find it very easy not to look
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at the reality of prostitution even when
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they’re in a brothel you know but I
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don’t believe for a moment that the
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majority of men are not aware of what it
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is I think you broke it down into those
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who have a kind of sadistic impulse yeah
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to those who are just numb and to those
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who will verbally recognize the humanity
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of the woman and yet carry out sexual
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activity which denies their humanity is
11:07
that correct yeah I mean look very
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recently there’s been a new project put
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together by abolitionist colleagues of
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mine in France so this is a virtual
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brothel a website all of the women in
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our women who are deceased and or badly
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injured at this time so the men are
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calling this brothel that doesn’t
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actually exist and the attitudes are
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remarkable they’re very striking some of
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the men are very embarrassed some of
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them are hanging up the phone
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others are joking and saying oh well if
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she’s in hospital surely she has a
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friend who could step in for some of the
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men are completely unmoved by the fact
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that these women are most of them in
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graveyards it’s absolutely ridiculous to
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try to frame this human rights violation
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as walk well and we should say that
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early death is one of the
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characteristics of yeah in prostitute
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absolutely it is the homicide rate has
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been recorded as high as 40 times the
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national average suicide has been found
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to be a significant consequence of
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prostitution and what we never get into
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looking at is all of the other ways that
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women die and there are many of them
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great thank you
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when we come back we’ll hear more from
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rachel moran author of paid for my
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journeys for prostitution
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welcome back to on contact we’ll
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continue our conversation with Rachel
12:52
Moran author of paid for my journey
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through prostitution there’s a myth
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perpetuated by movies like pretty woman
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that there is a level of prostitution
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the high-class call girl who goes to the
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five-star hotel that is somehow
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glamorous different from being on the
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street mm-hmm and there is and it’s
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laughable
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I made the remark and paid for I believe
13:24
that the nature of your surroundings
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doesn’t change anything to do with the
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actual act and that it makes no
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difference at the end of the day whether
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you’re heiress is Robin against white
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linen sheets or rough and concrete and
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that was really my way of crystallize
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and if you understand then that it just
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does not matter whether you’re in a
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five-star hotel or whether you’re in the
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back of a car or whatever because this
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situation involves bodily invasion that
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can happen anywhere and luxurious
13:52
surroundings still nothing to change
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that well you write in the book that you
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actually prefer to be on the street oh
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yeah very much so
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well I’ve always said if I had to do one
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night in prostitution again and it was
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absolutely necessary for some you know
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unimaginable reason I would hit the
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street every single time there’s no
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doubt about it why because you have a
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very you have no autonomy whatsoever in
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most circumstances but on the street at
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least you mean in a hotel yes and you I
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think you also write in the book that
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the possibility of violence increases in
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a hotel room
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yeah and studies have shown that and
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that doesn’t surprise me at all there is
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this myth that the street is the worst
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most dangerous place you can possibly be
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now if you’re on street and you’re being
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you’re under heavily violent pimp
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control that of course will change the
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nature of the situation or when I was on
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the street I was able to say to myself I
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don’t like to look on his eye
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I’m not gonna take the risk tonight but
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if you’re under your end of a phone line
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you can’t assess Amanda on the phone
14:55
line you turn up at the hotel or at his
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apartment or wherever and the door
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closes behind you and you’re in a much
15:01
more dangerous situation are you talking
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the book about how you actually
15:04
preferred to deal with clients who are
15:07
into fetishes oh yeah they were just
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simply much easier yeah easier to deal
15:13
with well primarily because they’re not
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looking to penetrate your body in most
15:19
cases especially if a man is into this
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submissive carry on or if he’s a
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transvestite it runs counter current to
15:28
his fantasy you know so that that made
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them very much easier any way to deal
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with what is behind the whole movement
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to legalize quote-unquote sex work you
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know the last time we met and spoke Kris
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I hadn’t at that time being to New
15:47
Zealand I’ve been there since so I have
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seen exactly the model now with my own
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eyes where prostitution is legal like
15:55
Germany
15:55
yeah well the situation there is that
15:58
pimping and brothel keeping and every
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peripheral activity you can imagine
16:04
related to the running of the sex trade
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is decriminalized which is simply
16:09
legalization by a different name now
16:11
what I saw on the streets in New Zealand
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I will never forget as long as I live
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the first night I went down there we saw
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myself in a colleague of mine a woman
16:20
prostitute and from the side of the road
16:22
in her Zimmer frame right now I never
16:24
seen that anywhere in the world and I’ve
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been through over 20 countries in their
16:28
research and prostitution a Zimmer frame
16:30
is there you know those do to use the
16:32
same camera yes yeah a woman who could
16:35
barely stand she needed to the use of a
16:37
walker to stand up beside the road and
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in the five or ten minutes after we
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begun speaking to her a young woman many
16:43
years younger in horror came running up
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screaming crying she just been raped and
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robbed in a car moments before the
16:51
outreach workers who showed us around
16:52
and spoke to us explained that they have
16:56
been doing their work now for more than
16:58
15 years so from before the
17:00
criminalization came in
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what they said to us was that they used
17:04
to be dealing with in the range of six
17:06
to eight women out on those streets now
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to dealing with somewhere in the region
17:09
of fifty to sixty so that is what
17:12
happened in the twelve thirteen years
17:14
since decriminalization came into New
17:16
Zealand the trade has expanded
17:19
enormously as it always does and what
17:21
are the forces that you think are behind
17:23
this drive to legalize prostitution well
17:27
we know that pimps are playing a massive
17:30
role in this behind the scenes we’ve
17:32
seen Alexandra Gill who inputted by the
17:36
way into the Amnesty International we
17:38
should be clear that Amnesty
17:39
International has called for they have
17:42
called for the New Zealand model yes
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yeah and we know that some of the people
17:46
who gave their views sourcing into the
17:49
amnesty consultation about the future
17:52
frame and a prostitution legislation
17:54
some of them are pimps one of them in
17:57
particular Alexandra Gill who I just
17:58
mentioned is serving 15 years in a
18:01
Mexican prison so I think I’m earnest
18:03
you really need to take a good long look
18:04
at who they’re listening to but then
18:06
they’ve shut voices like yours out oh
18:08
absolutely I’m honestly have refused to
18:10
debate with me on two occasions now one
18:13
last year in London and the second time
18:17
just in recent weeks in front of New
18:20
York where and and what was their reason
18:22
for them but they didn’t give a reason
18:24
they just you just heard my name and
18:28
goodbye
18:29
you’re also attacked quite a bit
18:31
relentlessly what what are what’s the
18:33
nature of those attacks well it’s
18:36
absolutely never-ending on social media
18:39
in my own personal life I’ve had to have
18:42
my house put on the pulse system which
18:44
means that if a call comes in from my
18:46
address the Rapid Response Unit of the
18:48
police will arrive I’ve had no end
18:52
I’ve been stalked for years by one very
18:54
very unwell individual and what when
18:57
they attack you what do they say what
18:58
how do they attack you generally they’ll
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say that I’m a liar a fraud stir that I
19:03
was never in prostitution in my life
19:05
this has been repeated in so many
19:08
circles just unbelievable where do you
19:11
think that comes from
19:11
I think it comes from a place of
19:14
ignorance and fear in a lot of cases and
19:17
I think it comes from maliciousness and
19:19
nastiness in others I think fear what do
19:22
you mean fear I think there are there
19:24
are people out there who are simply
19:25
afraid to hear what I have to say and to
19:27
give it credence because it runs so
19:29
directly counter to their ideology which
19:32
they are so committed to why do you
19:34
think the left is bought into this idea
19:35
of sex work I mean they will decry the
19:38
exploitation of women in sweatshops in
19:41
Bangladesh mm-hmm and yet they say
19:43
nothing about sexual exploitation they
19:46
seek to legitimize it well why is that
19:48
because we’re living in a patriarchy
19:50
quite frankly and if there’s any one
19:54
group of people who can be thrown under
19:55
the bus and the patriarchy its women and
19:59
we know that that females that women and
20:01
girls make up the vast majority of the
20:03
prostitute population and desert
20:05
it’s absolutely sickening that the left
20:08
the the level of just a level of I can’t
20:16
even find the word I’m looking forward
20:18
so shocked and it runs absolutely
20:21
counter to every principle on the Left
20:24
I mean there’s just no capacity for
20:27
empathy that’s that’s huge
20:30
and I mean what I have found it most
20:32
astonishing is the way that voices from
20:34
the left will confront me no one that I
20:37
was a homeless face wouldn’t you say
20:39
that the left is your primary you would
20:41
sit on it you would have thought so you
20:43
certainly would have hoped so but that
20:45
no I meant upon but in fact the left
20:47
it’s the left that goes after you were
20:50
the most venom isn’t it oh yes and and I
20:53
misunderstood what you were about to say
20:54
there I thought you were about to say
20:55
wouldn’t you have thought that they
20:56
would have been your strongest ally
20:58
right you would have but it’s quite the
21:00
opposite and when you confront these
21:05
figures what is usually their response
21:09
to you what is their answer what is the
21:11
kind of cliche that they throw back at
21:13
you it’s some nonsense about my
21:16
individual experience not being
21:21
reason enough I supposed to even look at
21:24
this issue as a matter of of
21:26
exploitation they would rather listen to
21:29
the point zero one percent of upper
21:33
middle class white Western women who are
21:35
prostituting their way to their PhD
21:37
degrees and such almost unheard of
21:40
fantasy situations those women are by no
21:44
means representative everybody knows
21:47
that and it’s being ignored by the left
21:51
who really I feel are to take themselves
21:53
for a walk through the streets of song
21:55
agachi or any of the many places may
21:57
they could try it out for a night yeah
21:59
yeah or even an hour one Balkan you had
22:05
told me earlier that one of the ways to
22:08
expose that this is not work is that as
22:13
you age out of prostitution mmm you are
22:18
just cast aside mmm well I mean we look
22:23
if we look at the different ways that uh
22:24
you know this nonsense terminology for
22:26
example the oldest profession if we look
22:29
at any other profession on the earth
22:31
you’ve got to have qualifications right
22:34
in order to even begin
22:37
prostitution is constantly pushed at us
22:40
as a form of labor so to work a
22:42
profession but nothing about the way
22:45
that it operates mirrors any actual
22:48
profession anywhere either and how you
22:50
get into it or or what happens during it
22:53
or what happens as you leave it the it’s
22:57
unimaginable to think of any other
22:59
so-called profession where you’d go in
23:01
where absolutely no no training or no
23:04
experience and in fact the less training
23:06
and experience you have the more
23:08
beneficial to you so it operates in
23:12
quite counter quite the opposite way and
23:15
yet we’re expected to accept as a
23:17
profession it’s not a profession it’s
23:19
not work and we can call it sex work
23:21
until the sky falls in and we all catch
23:23
larks it’s not work well and and as you
23:26
pointed out after 20 or 30 years likes
23:31
another job
23:32
yeah and you won’t have any renew
23:36
Mauritian at the far end of it either
23:38
there’s no pension there’s no sense of
23:41
this person has 30 years experience you
23:44
know there’s some more than that the
23:46
more experience you have in prostitution
23:48
the less worth you have so again it’s
23:50
just another example of prostitution
23:52
operate and quite counter to any other
23:55
form of profession well and we’ve seen
23:57
that where they have legalized
23:58
prostitution the argument has been these
24:01
people can register as workers but they
24:03
don’t register we don’t absolutely not
24:05
in 400,000 women in Germany 44 of
24:08
registered Wow so then it becomes
24:11
industrial it does absolutely and you
24:15
know we cannot say for a million reasons
24:18
to prostitution its Walkman right Thank
24:21
You Rachel
24:22
you’re very welcome thank you so much
24:25
for joining me that was Rachel Moran
24:27
author of paid for my journey through
24:30
prostitution the war industry like the
24:35
prostitution industry feeds off of the
24:37
despair poverty and hopelessness that
24:40
afflict the lives of many of the young
24:42
in a world of closed doors and few
24:45
opportunities the military like
24:46
prostitution appears to offer a way out
24:49
military recruiters after all are little
24:53
more than uniformed human traffickers
24:55
all traffickers of human beings target
24:58
the vulnerable and the poor they make
25:00
promises that are usually never kept
25:03
they promise an income to the desperate
25:05
once they have their prey trapped they
25:08
forced them into a life that bears
25:10
little resemblance to the fantasy they
25:13
peddled prostituted girls and women
25:15
nearly all from the developing world or
25:18
the impoverished pockets within our own
25:20
society are the quintessential
25:22
expression of our callous neoliberal
25:25
order they are stripped of their
25:27
humanity to become commodities which in
25:29
the end is how corporate power looks at
25:32
all of us thank you for joining us you
25:35
can find us on our T com
25:37
slash on contact until next week